Discussion on the FSM- keep it clean/respectful

Look at it this way.  Imagine the 2011 Steelers have 1st and goal at the 9 yard line, at home against Baltimore with 12 minutes left in the 4th quarter.  The offense calls timeout to talk things over.  You hold your head in your hands because you KNOW the Steelers will come out with an empty backfield and 5 wide receivers, and Ben Roethlisberger will get creamed.  Lo and behold, the Steelers come out in an empty backfield set with 5 wide receivers.

According to your statement, Bruce Arians cannot be blamed for the formation because you already KNEW he was going to use it. 

Not the same thing, and here's why.  Regardless of my foreknowledge, I have absolutely no control over what Bruce Arians is going to do. 

GOD CREATED ME!!!

He has the ultimate control over my fate.  If he creates me with the knowledge of my wrongdoings before I do them, then he is responsible for those sins!

Basically, you are telling me that my eternal fate has already happened in God's eyes.  It is pre-determined as far as I am concerned, but history as far as God is concerned.  Then there is no choice to be made.  I have no free will, just the illusion of it.  If my life, and afterlife for that matter, have already happened then I have no control over my decisions, actions and feelings.  I'm just a robot, programmed by the ultimate creator to live my life in the way he designed.

Sorry, that doesn't compute with me!

That's not what I am doing at all.  Again, you aren't seperating your faith from the conversation.  I could care less what a sociologist had to say about the scriptures.  I do care, though, as a man interested in how other men could have created such a book (remember that I believe its just a book of fiction written by men), how a sociologist would interpret the behaviour needed for such a book to come into existence.  See the difference?

I see the difference in what you are saying - your perspective - but that doesn't take away the fact that OT/NT speak of the same God and all it takes is a little study to discover that.  If a sociologist was looking at motivations, but drew a conclusion that the Bible describes two Gods then the conclusion is outside the scope of their investigation. 

Your original point was that some scholars conclude the Bible speaks of two Gods, which has nothing to do with your explanation here, and that is where my argument lies.

Not the same thing, and here's why.  Regardless of my foreknowledge, I have absolutely no control over what Bruce Arians is going to do.

Right!
He has the ultimate control over my fate.  If he creates me with the knowledge of my wrongdoings before I do them, then he is responsible for those sins!

Wrong!

Basically, you are telling me that my eternal fate has already happened in God's eyes.

YES!

Then there is no choice to be made.  I have no free will, just the illusion of it.

WRONG!

If my life, and afterlife for that matter, have already happened then I have no control over my decisions, actions and feelings.  I'm just a robot, programmed by the ultimate creator to live my life in the way he designed.

WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG!  They haven't already happened for you.  We are all responsible for the choices we make because WE make them.  Do you not hold a thief responsible for his/her actions because he/she didn't ask to be born, or didn't ask to be born with a disposition toward stealing things? 

I see the difference in what you are saying - your perspective - but that doesn't take away the fact that OT/NT speak of the same God and all it takes is a little study to discover that.

A little study of theology, which is a study of religion.  Of course, from a religious perspective, they are the same God.

If a sociologist was looking at motivations, but drew a conclusion that the Bible describes two Gods then the conclusion is outside the scope of their investigation. 

Okay, let me reword it then.

A sociologist could make the argument that the men who wrote about the fictional God of the OT were describing a completely different being than the men who wrote about the fictional God of the NT.

See, the sociologist is not making a conclusion about God or the Bible, per se, but about the people who wrote the stories within the Bible.

Again, none of this works if your predisposition is one of faith in this being.

Your original point was that some scholars conclude the Bible speaks of two Gods, which has nothing to do with your explanation here, and that is where my argument lies.

Fair enough.  I think we've both made our point.  It becomes a very complicated subject when you start trying to make a faithful man see through an unfaithful man's eyes or vice versa.

God can't lie
God can't cheat
God can't deny Himself.

When God makes something to last forever, which is what eternal means, he can't destroy it. But God will lock satan up in a bottomless pit, after all men and women who have ever lived are given a chance to qualify for eternal life.

WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG!  They haven't already happened for you.

That doesn't matter, they have already happened.  No matter what choice I make, even if I think I am making a completely different choice than I would normally make, it has already been made.  That is not free will, it is a predetermined fate.  Period.

Do you not hold a thief responsible for his/her actions because he/she didn't ask to be born, or didn't ask to be born with a disposition toward stealing things? 

Sure we do...because the decision was already made to hold them responsible!

But God will lock satan up in a bottomless pit,

Yeah, but then he's going to let him out after a 1000 years for some strange reason!  Weird if you ask me!

after all men and women who have ever lived are given a chance to qualify for eternal life.

Yeah, but then he's going to let him out after a 1000 years for some strange reason! 

That will be to test all the people who are trying to qualify for eternal life. satan will only be loose for a few years then he will be banished to outer darkness.

When God makes something to last forever, which is what eternal means, he can't destroy it.

Well, eternal means having no beginning and no end.  No part of creation is eternal.  But some of it is everlasting, like people.

That doesn't matter, they have already happened.  No matter what choice I make, even if I think I am making a completely different choice than I would normally make, it has already been made. 

Yes, but YOU are the one who made the choice.  Period.

That is not free will, it is a predetermined fate.  Period.

Wrong!  Period!

You are missing my point that because time has no relevence to God, our future is the same to Him as the past and present.  You haven't yet made the decision so it isn't pre- anything.  It is still in the future.  God's ability to know the choice you will make does not limit your freedom to make whatever choice you like.  I'm not sure where the confusion lies, really.  Period.

This is a good read. Keep going, this is riveting stuff. i havent smiled so much in a while :) great ideas being thrown around.

also mano- keep strong :)

just to nudge this conversation a little- what is the purpose of your existence LTS? im sure i have asked you that, but i just wanted to say it one more time, so mano can continue from there, i think its very pertinent to what you are discussing, ill go back to reading and laughing i mean smiling.

2k

 what is the purpose of your existence LTS?

The purpose of our existence is to qualify to replace satan and the fallen angels as the kings and royal priesthood on earth. Many are called few are chosen at this time. Later everyone will be resurected and called when satan is out of the way for 1,000 years. Those who are called during that  1,000 years will have to pass the test of satan being loosed for a short few years at the end of the 1,000 years. Then everyone who has qualified during that 1,000 years and made through the temptation satan brings at the end will become a spirit being, and those that don't will be burned up and destroyed in the lake of fire.  Our ultimate purpose though is to become the family of God.

Yes, but YOU are the one who made the choice.  Period.

Did I?  When?  In the future?

You are missing my point that because time has no relevence to God, our future is the same to Him as the past and present.

I'm not missing your point, I get what you are trying to say, I am just trying to show you that its wrong.

God's ability to know the choice you will make does not limit your freedom to make whatever choice you like.

It doesn't?

This must be another one of those "faith things".

If somebody KNOWS what I am going to do before I do it, and I mean truly KNOWS (not just making an educated guess like in your BA analogy), then how can I believe that I really have a choice in what I do?

In order for someone to have knowledge of my decisions before I make them, my decisions must already be made, which means that I didn't make them.

You say that time doesn't matter to God, but it does matter to us.  If the creator of all life, the being that breathed life into me, has prior knowledge of everything that I am going to do, then my life is predetermined.

Period.

God's ability to know the choice you will make does not limit your freedom to make whatever choice you like.

It doesn't?

This must be another one of those "faith things".... Can't be, you participate in this process all day long and we all know you have absolutely no faith.

Here's your example ... You make a decision to do something,, even if  you change your mind on what to do, God knows what your final decision is.  You can do good, or bad or nothing at all ... it's all your decision to make.  No one has made it for you and nothing is predetermined  because everything we do eventually comes to a conclusion.  If you think because God knows what your final conclusion is, that that means you never had any choice in the matter is ludicrious.  It was always your choice, He just knew what your choice would be.

If somebody KNOWS what I am going to do before I do it, and I mean truly KNOWS (not just making an educated guess like in your BA analogy), then how can I believe that I really have a choice in what I do?  Why wouldn't you ... what in the world extrapolates someone else knowing what you are going to do as the only thing that could have been done.  You may have had hundreds of choices, picked the one you felt most comfortable with and ran with it.

Here's your example... ( I don't know everything so please take this with a grain of salt) .. Your daughter has pneumonia.  The doctor says this shot of penecillin will fix the problem.  I know you are going to do everything in your power to help your child, so I know you'll do what is right by her.  However, amidst the decision making, you really have little confidence in that particular doctor and take her to another for a 2nd opinion, you are more comfortable with.  That doctor says a shot of penicillin will do the trick and you agree and you go with it.  There you go, I knew, as did you you'd help your child, ( get the shot) but you changed your mind to go with another doctor.  I didn't know you'd do that, but God did.  He in no way influenced your decision ... He left it all up to you.

In order for someone to have knowledge of my decisions before I make them, my decisions must already be made, which means that I didn't make them.  What is this ?  You can't make a decision because God knows what the decision is going to be.  What ?  Mano, in your world then If anyone knows what you are going to do (certainly not in all things) then it was never your thought or that thought was never your decision in the first place ... ?  This need much further definition. 

You say that time doesn't matter to God, but it does matter to us.  If the creator of all life, the being that breathed life into me, has prior knowledge of everything that I am going to do, then my life is predetermined.  No, you have been given the chance to make choices all your life.  If you choose one way or the other, God does know what your decision will be, but that in no way means your life has been predetermined.  The very right you have to make a choice is your decision.  God simply knows of that decision before hand.  That doesn't effect you or your decision making process one bit, it only means God knew of it before you made it.

Your decisions are yours and God gave you the free will to choose ...  just because He knows of your choice doesn't mean it wasn't yours and your responsibility to deal with it.

And all of this is exactly why there is forgiveness.  The sacrament of penance is given for exactly this reason... God knows if your decision for forgiveness is going to happen too and will always give us the chance to change our minds on any mistake we perceive we have made to ask forgiveness.  He knows.  Deal with it ...

period



MoS

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spin spin spin



your minds are primordial soup

 


Kettle, ... meet pot ... !



MoS

Alright, so I have given this some thought over the past few days.  I tink we can sum up the issue here like this:

To a faithful man, this concept of God knowing your path but not affecting it is a simple one.  You have faith that this God only does good by you and that He wants what is best for you.  That faith allows for an understanding that even though he knows your decisions before you make them that it is still within you to choose how you wish.

As an unfaithful man, or a skeptic, its harder to see it that way.  I reconcile your faith as condradictory since this being is also the "Creator".  The concept that he is completely omniscient, yet doesn't influence the decisions we make seems flawed to me.  Not because I can't understand it, but because logically, if He has his hand in creating me AND knows the outcome of my entire life before he does so, then he has a modicum of control over that life.  If He chooses to create me while knowing the outcome of my life, decision for decision, and how it will affect not only me but those around me, then He has created a being with a predetermined fate.

He knows.  Deal with it ...

Well, technically, I don't have to deal with it, MoS.  I believe Him to be a fictional character, so saying "He knows" is tantamount, in my mind, to saying that "Santa knows if I've been bad or good".